Tape 134 Mikeen McCarthy.  12.1.79.

Contents   

Talk about Puck Fair.

Three days of fair, 10, 11, 12th August,  1st day sheep day, 2nd day general fair day, third day for stragglers.

Committee runs fair. 

Travellers arrive at fair sometimes two months before it started.

Story of how Puck Fair started.

Selection of Puck Goat (goat with longest horns), goat caught and brought into Kilorglin and placed on a platform fifty feet high.  Michael's uncle always used to "put up the goat". Oldest man in the town "puts up" the goat.

Used to present prizes to Travellers for best wagon, horse, harness etc., (stopped fifteen years ago).

Ballinasloe Fair biggest Travellers fair. Horses & cattle.

American cowboys at Ballinasloe

Laurence Ward "King" of Ballinasloe Fair

Spancil Hill fair, 24th June, 25th March in Kilrush, 8th May Ennis, 6th August at Cahersiveen, 8th May & 7th October at Killarney.

Horse and cattle fair at Dingle.

Dingle Regatta, greasy pole competition.

Fair day at Enniscorthy every couple of months, Limerick fair 8th September.

Main Travellers fair at Ballinasloe, Cahermee and Puck.

Fairs in England, Epsom, Appleby.

Travellers used to have their own fair in England 20 odd years ago at crossroads.

Travellers banned from Barnet Fair this year.

Travellers important to the fairs.

Tradesmen vied for patronage of Travellers (Mikeen's mother).

Travellers once respected members of the community, no longer welcome.

Wren Boys on St Stephen's Day, go around collecting for the Wren on horses and flats (flat back wagons).

Big men dressed as women, small men as the men. Catching the wren for the ceremony.

Rhyme for the wren.

Disguise against the law so The Wren Boys would have to wear masks.  

Making of the mask. 

Rivalry between different groups of wren boys.

Mikeen’s brother in law made fun of for dressing up as the woman on the wren boys.    Never drink on the wren

Biggest wren in Ireland in Dingle Town,  

Wren threw down two halt crowns and wren boys threw it back because it wasn't enough.

Travellers allowed to make collection when they lost a horse9 or when a caravan was burned. Permission obtained ~ from police.

Wren boys welcomed at Killarney hospital.

If you are short of money on New Years Eve you will be broke for the rest of the year.

Hang branch of tree outside door on all Souls night, to keep way the ghosts, go round the next day and collect.

J C       Now Mikey, will you tell us, when does Puck fair happen, for a start?

M C     The tenth and the eleventh and the twelfth of August, well, that’s what they call the Gathering Day, and then there’s Puck fair Day and then the Scattering Day’s the last day.

J C       So there’s three days, Gathering Day…..?

M C     Gathering Day and Puck Fair Day and then you’ve the Scattering Day, the last day, that’s the day the puck goat is taken out, taken down; he’s put up on the tenth, at three o’clock in the evening, he’s not taken down till three o’clock then on the twelfth.

J C       Now what happens right from the beginning?

M C     Well the first day like, is the sheep day, for selling all sheep, then you’ve the Puck Fair day, that’s everything, cattle, horses, donkeys, sheep and everything.  So you’ve no fair like, the third day, there might be few horses wandering around like, you know, same as the Puck fair came in being the first of Puck, they’d be the straggler like, and forget about his horse and come back and try and sell him, you know, all that.

J C       Now how far beforehand do they plan for the fair, what do they do to plan for it?

M C     Well for us now or the committee of the town?  The committee or the Travellers?

J C       For the committee in the town, yeah.

M C     Ah, they starts a couple of months before it putting up all those banners and all this, d’you know, everything.  And then there’s big amusements there then.  And they’ve the full extension in the three days no shut for the pubs, night and day for the three days.  So I remember the time you’d see the fellers and the old Travellers and they’d fall asleep and they’d wake up and they’d drink again and they’d have something to eat and when they’d have enough drank they’d fall asleep again down on the floor or down on the long old stools that was going that time.  And that was it and they mightn’t leave it maybe for two days after Puck, maybe a week after it, and they might be there….. well, we were often there two months before the fair.  The bridge ‘d be full of caravans, our wagons like and horses and all that, tents and everything and that’d be two months before the fair.  In fact there was a time when a group of Travellers pulled in there months before the fair and they never left it till the following year again, same place, never left.

J C       Now can you tell us about the goat Mikey?

M C     Well as far as the old people ’d tell you like, that how it all begin is where the Puck Fair, where the Puck stand is now like, that there was no tar roads like at that time, d’you know, only all big holes in the roads in the town.  There was an old man came in the tenth of August to sell a puck goat.  So there was a junk of a tree right where the Puck stand is now, where the cut the tree long ago and the left the junk standing, you know.  And he tied the old puck goat there.  So he goes into the pub drinking and he never came out until the twelfth day, he was inside in the pub three days and three nights without coming out.  I suppose that time like there was no such thing as shutting of the bars or anything, keep them open as long as they have a customer.  And that was the last day he came out and the old puck was standing up on top, he jumped on top of the lump of the tree that was left like, and he was standing there for the three nights and three days, and whatever bits of cabbage the people ‘d give him, the old puck goat, while your man was drinking.  So that’s how it all started.  So every other year then, it started on that and from that on then they’d choose a puck goat, well, in every place round there like they’ve plenty goats.

So the committee ‘d go round maybe six months before time choosing a puck goat and then they’d keep looking here, they never have the same puck goat like for the second year.  So they’d look for the feller with the longest horns anyway.   And ‘tis well known now and they strict now (?) whatever payment those men gets, or maybe it’s the kind of a privilege of having a puck goat up, it’s great thing like.  And your man ‘d come in, he’d say, “I’ve a puck goat and the horns is such-and-such a length like”, maybe twenty-five inches or thing like, for each one I mean, and so many curls and twists and all.  So they’d go on and look at the puck and if he was a better puck than the other man’s puck, they’d say, “bring him in next year, he’d be the one”.  So I remember the time they’d road him in, walk him in.  Crowd ‘d get together then like and he’d leave him off through the mountains then once he was choose for the puck.  And then they on, a crowd then‘d get together, a committee, and young lads and all and they’d catch him and they’d bring him in.  Oh, they used walk him in one time, and then they used get horse and car and they’d have him inside in cribs in the horse and car and they’d bring him in that way.  But ‘tis more modern now, they brings him in a lorry now and all that.  But today now ‘tis the Puck stand at fifty feet high now today and there’s a dancing place underneath there, there’s all the dancing and the singing and the storytelling and the fiddle playing and all that.  So that continues all night long, no stop for three nights and three days.

J C       So can I just get this straight then, they out and they catch a goat and they judge which is the best goat and then they let it go again?

M Mc  They let it go then on to the mountains until the day before the Puck Fair.

J C       And it’s always a wild goat?

M Mc  ‘Tis always wild, and they catch it then.  Well, you’re man‘d already have him penned like to show him to the committee.  Well there’d be several puck goats like, but the committee like, he’s Coffey is his name, he has the pub at the bottom of the town, and ‘tis to him…… same as I’d have a puck goat now, I’d say, “I have a puck goat now and his horns is such and such a length, and so many curls in his horns and he’s such a height”.

And he’d say, “We’ll go and have a look at him”.

And you’d have one, we’ll say Jimmy and he’d go and have a look at yours, and Tony there, he’d go and have a look at Tony’s.  So he’d choose the best one like, the best farmers round the country.  So that’s the Puck then, whatever on they’d choose.

J C       And you say the platform’s fifty feet?

M Mc  Fifty feet high.

J C       And it’s what, it’s just a wooden pole is it with a…..?

M Mc  Four wooden poles and there’s holes always in the road like, so what they do is clean them out, they fill them up with blocks like when they take away the Puck and then the day before the fair when they starts building the platform like, they takes up the wooden blocks and there’s planks, plank holes gone away down through the ground like, and they slip down the poles there and they builds up their platforms then.  So my uncle was putting it up for thirty years, he was putting up the Puck Goat.   And they’d always find him inside in a pub, he was an old English soldier like, d’you know, well, he was the oldest one of the Travellers I’d say like.   And they’d find him, well all he’d have to do is just put his hand on his rope, on the rope like, that more than he used to do when they used to be able to find him sometimes. (Laughter)  And they wouldn’t put up the Puck without he putting his hand on the rope; well he was supposed to be putting up the Puck then.  So he done it for thirty years, and he died the first day of Puck and he was buried the second, yeah.

J C       So do they still do that, this thing about somebody putting their hand on the rope?

M Mc  Oh yeah, ‘tis…..

J C       Why is that, d’you know?

M Mc  Well, it’s a tradition like, of the town.  You’d here the craic, “Who put up the Puck this year, who put him up last year?” and all that, “who’s going to put him up next year?”  Some old veterans kind of belong to the town, d’you know, and all that.  Well as I say, he just puts his hand to the rope and the committee brings it right up then with a pulley, d’you know, a rope and a pulley, five or six of them gets together.  So he’s built inside in his own kind of a little crate, a very fancy one made, with a little rood and all, like a little thatched house, much, and he’s inside in that, so they pulls that right up, him, cage and all together.  So he’s fed there three nights and three days.

J C       He’s in a cage on the top?

M Mc  Built like a little house, d’you know.  Cage and all goes up together, up to the top.

J C       And they feed him, they send food up?

M Mc  Oh yeah.

J C       By pulley?

M Mc  Oh yeah, he’s well looked after.

J C       How do they choose the man who puts the Puck up, they just choose….. Is there any way of doing it?

M Mc  Er well….. ‘twas my uncle was doing it for years but I don’t know who does it now Jimmy.

J C       You don’ know how they….. how they decide who does it though?

M Mc  I’d say ‘tis the oldest old lad in the town, you know, something like that, or somebody is very well known.

J C       And what happens at the end of the fair then?

M Mc  Well the third day then everybody….. the last day then is as big a day as the middle day because that’s the day it is coming down.  But then about six or eight o’clock in the evening the town a kind of quiet then, you know, all of the pubs ‘d be full then, but not the streets, d’you know.  But you’d see them there from every country in the world and ‘tis after the fair you’d see them all, jay, there’d be some of them with their whiskers hanging out of them and no shaving and no washing and no nothing at all; fellers never drank in their life. (Laughter)  Oh yeah.  There’d be an awful lot of hippies there now and all that, d’you know, lately.  They used held prizes for Travelling People with their best waggon and best horses and best everything.  We’d have a parade through the town then the committee’d pick out the nicest waggon and he’d get a prize of twenty pound and a cup.  And they’d pick out the nicest horse then and he’d get a prize, five pound for the horse, and jay, we’d be doing up those caravans and those harness and you’d get a prize for the best harness and then you….. oh yeah, you get twenty pound and a cup for the nicest turn-out, nicest horse, waggon and harness. 

J C       That’s just for Travellers?

M Mc  That’s just the Travellers.  But they cut it out because there used be too much people in the street and the wagons going up and down, and what they used to do later on then is come down to the bridge and judge them theirself below at the bridge, because ‘twas so many people in the street, you see, and ‘twas such a hill up that the horse used get an awful lather with pulling the waggon up there.  And you might be half ways  up the hill when you have to stop the horse because the people going across the street, so they’d be like flies.  So ‘twas dangerous more than anything else because the hill was that big like, the caravan’d go back down, horse and all.

J C       So you say….. do they still do the judging now?

M Mc  No, not now, sure there’s no caravans now.

J C       Not at all now, because you said they used to go down to the bridge; when did that stop, d’you know?

M Mc  Jay, it must have been fifteen years ago that stop, because there was no wagons they d’you see, no piebald horses, things like that.  They’d come with their motor and trailer.

J C       has it always been a Travellers fair?

M Mc  Oh yeah.  Oh, if the Travellers left it tomorrow morning you’d have no Puck Fair, no.

J C       Which would you say was the biggest Travellers fair Mikey?

M Mc  Ballinasloe.

J C       Ballinasloe.

M Mc  I’d say like.  But Puck Fair was a bigger town, ‘twould be a bigger….. Puck because ‘tis only a small town, d’you know and there don’t be enough room.  There’s fifty two pubs in it and you’d be lucky to get into one of them to get a drink, you’d be just lucky to get in, to get your hand in.  Every pub chocked out full.  There’d be more drinking on the streets than there’d be in the pubs.  (Laughter)

J C       Do you know when the tourists started coming in Mikey?

M Mc  What time of the year is it?

J C       No, when?

M Mc  How long ago?

J C       How long ago?

M Mc  Well I remember a time that, if you see a man like, with a camera on his back, he’d be walking, ‘dyou know, it’d be kind of a strange thing to see.  ‘Tis those later years I’d say.  I remember twenty years ago a shower of cowboys came over there, oh yeah, real cowboys, they were jocking the horses and all like.  Jay, they were throwing money around through the streets, jeez, they didn’t know what to do, about six of them together and two or three women.  The real things like, real cowboys.   He told us to get him a wicked horse and we got an old kicking horse for him anyway, d’you know, we told him mind himself.  Jay, he got up on him and the old horse was kicking around the place, couldn’t even throw him, a big, heavy man.  (Laughter)

J C       Can you….. what happens at the end of the Puck, what do they do with the goat; they bring it back down; how do they bring it back down?

M Mc  The same way, back down again by pulley, on to the lorry and he’s put back out to the mountains again.

J C       Yeah.  Can you think of anything else Mikey, a fair that has a similar type of thing, like an animal, like the Puck, anywhere else in Ireland?

M Mc  No, not that I know of.

J C       Nothing else like that?

M Mc  No, not that I know of, no.

J C       Nothing with dogs or cats or sheep or anything, no?

M Mc  No, not that I know of.

J C       Ok, that’s nice Mikey.   Can you talk a bit about other fairs, like Ballinasloe, what kind of fair is it?

M Mc  It’s much like Puck, d’you know, but you’d have Lawrence Ward, he’s dead now, he was the king; his father before him was the king of Ballinasloe, the king of the Wards like, but he was always in Ballinasloe and he’s…… there was Lawrence, he’s dead now, and his father before him, well he was a famous fighting man, so that’s how he….. had to be a fighting man that time to be a king like.  But he was crowned king in Ballinasloe some years back as far as what I hear, with the Travellers like.

J C       That always went on at Ballinasloe did it?

M Mc  It only went on two times, Lawrence was crowned king there and his father was crowned king at Ballinasloe.

J C       What’s the main thing with Ballinasloe, what’s the main……?

M Mc  Well you’ve more Travellers going back out of Great Britain here, going back to Ballinasloe, you’ve as much as what’s in Ireland.  It comes on now, September like, October.  You’ve all Travellers, the world of them now; I’m not saying the world of them, but I’d say a few hundred went back out of here now, last August and September, going back to Ballinasloe specially for the occasion.  But you wouldn’t see any Travellers going back like to Puck Fair now, like that, because it’s very far back, d’you see, and Ballinasloe’s kind of near the boat, but when you go back to Kerry, ‘tis miles, and then people don’t know it like.

J C       Where is Ballinasloe?

M Mc  Galway.

J C       It’s in Galway, yeah.  What’s the main thing that goes on there, is it horse selling or what?

M Mc  Oh, all horse selling, cattle selling, great horses comes from there, big, heavy horses.  Then you’ve all….. ‘twas a great place to sell horse-drawn caravans now, flat cars, harness, they brings them across in this country, sells them over there.  And you’d sell anything, anything good like, you’ve a customer there for everything, mostly with Travelling People, they keep buying and selling for the whole….. maybe a month, maybe a month before it, maybe a week after it.  Oh, you’d see fellers holding up stuff like, to bring them to Ballinasloe, the way they could sell them there, bring them from Kerry and all that, brought horses.

J C       How long does Ballinasloe go on for?

M Mc  Well, it’s kind of a Travellers fair, could go on for a month, could go on for two months.

J C       Is there an official time for it though?

M Mc  Oh, they are, the first of October, it’s only a one day fair like, but the Travellers makes it a fair, that’d be on there for maybe a month before it, a week after.  Like Puck Fair.  We were often in Puck Fair now, we’ll say, the same way, two or three months before it and remain on their for a week after it.  So I

imaging my self, if the Travellers left those fairs, there’d be no fair.

J C       Now how about other fairs, can you think of any of the other fairs Mikey?

M Mc  Cahermee.

J C       Cahermee; when is that?

M Mc  That’s on July, the twelfth day of July, one day fair.  Still it’s the Travellers makes that fair again.

J C       What’s that there, horses again?

M Mc  All horses; no cattle, only all horses.  Well that’s the Travellers fair, we’ll be there for a month before that again.  And you’d have to go from that then to Puck Fair, you’d just catch Puck Fair then after that like, you’ve a month.  Well that’s where you’d be for the month then, before Puck.

J C       Now how about things like Spancil Hill?

M Mc  You’ve Spancil Hill then, the twenty fourth day of June.  And you’ve the twenty fifth of March in Kilrush, you’ve the eighth of May then in Ennis in the county Clare, you’ve the sixth of August fair in Cahesiveen.  I used be at a fair every morning one time, I was like the Old Moore’s Almanac, if all the boys want to know where there’s a fair they’d have to ask me because I remember the dates and the day and all that, you know, and the towns.  Well you’d Killarney then, you had two fairs in Killarney in the year, the eighth of May and you’d the seventh of October, two for every year.  You got them right through like, you’d Dingle Fair then and you’d Anascaul and you had them all coming off in May and June, right through like.

J C       What happens at Dingle Fair Mikey, is there anything?

M Mc  No, it’s only just an ordinary fair, horse fair and cattle and all mixed.

J C       Do you ever remember The Dingle Regatta at all  Mikey?

M Mc  Yeah.

J C       What happened there?

M Mc  ‘Twas boat racing and all that, you know.  There’d be what they call the greasy pole (te), whoever’d climb out to the end of the greasy pole, it’d be all grease.  There’d be all swimmers like, and whoever get the flag off of the end then, he’d get the prize.  You used to see them and they skeeting out and everything, that wouldn’t be allowed like, you’d have to walk it out, you know, and then make a grab.

J C       What’s the other one?  Enniscorthy, does anything happen there?

M Mc  Annascaul?

J C       Enniscorthy Fair.

M Mc  There was Enniscorthy then, you’d a fair day like, every couple of months, d’you know, but there was a big fair there, I forget what month that was on, but I didn’t hear tell about that fair for years now, Enniscorthy.  The Travellers used to go there one time.  But the three main fairs now….. oh, there was a big fair in Limerick then, that was in the fall of the year, about September, and that used be a big fair for Travellers.  only three main fairs now left in Ireland, there’s Ballinasloe, Cahermee and Puck, that’s where all the Travellers hits for now.

J C       How long is it since you’ve been to one of the fairs Mikey, now?

M Mc  Just before I came over now, that’s four years next May, I was at them all that time, that was the year before like.

J C       How about the English fairs, d’you ever go to them?

M Mc  I used to, I used go to Appleby, I used go to Stowe outside of Birmingham and I goes out here to Epsom, I used go to all them fairs one time with horses and wagons years ago, but I goes to Epsom still, it’s on in March.  Well that’s the Travellers race like, on in March so.

J C       Is….. are these Travellers fairs, is Appleby a Travellers fair?

M Mc  Yeah, yeah.

J C       Is Brough Hill, is there a fair at Brough?

M Mc  In Ireland?

J C       No, no, it’s up by Appleby.  No ok.

M Mc  Not that I know of, no.  They were the only fairs I used be at now.  But Travellers used have their own fairs here in this country.  I used go to them when I young, by the crossroads, outside of Birmingham they used to have them every week-end, their own sales, nothing only all Travellers, their own sales.  Their own horses and sell them to one another and dealing and all that, you know.

J C       How long ago was that Mikey?

M Mc  Oh twenty-two, twenty-three years ago, maybe more.

J C       But not since?

M Mc  No, I don’t go, I suppose they do have them there Jimmy, but not that I know of, you know.

J C       No?

M Mc  No.

J C       That’s nice Mikey.   Anyway, say you what?

M Mc  We used to go to Barnett Fair too, that’s finished now as well, they wouldn’t leave any Travellers in there this year.

J C       They stopped the Travellers?

M Mc  Yeah.  And that’s the fair finished when the Travellers wasn’t left in.

J C       How do you get on with the Gorgies in the fairs Mikey?

M Mc  Ah great sure.

J C       Back in Ireland as well?

M Mc  Yeah, sure, ‘tis the Gorgies money’s going into the fair; the Travellers money and the Gorgies horses and all that, you know.  ‘Tis the Travellers buys all the horses, donkeys, everything.  A Gorgie man might buy one horse or two out of the whole fair maybe, what he want, a working horse, but sure, the Travellers buys the lot.  See one Travelling man coming in, maybe he might have two horse lorries and fill that up and they buys everything in the fair, everything.  I remember a time when my mother ‘d walk up town and all the old women, there was a butcher’s stall in Puck Fair, and he’d get the chairs, man, there put sitting in front of his butcher’s shop for an advertisement, and he’d go in to next door to old John Joe’s and he’d…… how many of them was there, maybe three or four of them going shopping like, maybe six of them, and he’d go in and buy them six pints of Guinness and bring them out and set them in them chairs and he’d sit down alongside them, d’you know. ‘twas a tradition of his, and a dinner, all this, and a good prize as well like, present for Puck Fair and welcome and all this.  Bejay, they could ramble into every pub and get a drink if they felt like it, or into the bakery and get a loaf of bread for a gift and all this, you know.  They were a part of the town, part of the people.  But it changed like, you know, ‘cause…. I’ll put it like this, a lot of hoodlism started what wasn’t among the old stock like.  And I suppose half of them was Gorgies and half of them Travellers, you wouldn’t know.  There’s a lot of the young folk to blame for it anyway, they’re not so much….. well, the old stock is welcome now, with people that they know like, but for young strangers coming in now to Puck of Ballinasloe or places like that, there’s not a whole lot of welcome at all.

J C       Pity. 

What happens then, when is it for a start?

M Mc  Yeah, that’s Saint Stephens’s day, the day after Christmas Day.  Well, that still goes on in Ireland, I used to be a Wren Man myself, if I was back today now I’d be still out with the Wren.  We used get on horses one time, maybe ten of us get together like and have two or three horses and flats and we’d start off  about five o’clock in the morning and nobody ‘d be up in town like, and one the music starts they wouldn’t be long getting up, we’d make plenty of noise to wake them.  And you’d collect in that town like and go on to the next village and collect there and we’d do around.  But then we got into the motor business then and we still kept it up.  So we might do ten, fifteen towns in a day with the motor and then there wouldn’t be a penny spent until we land back home, wherever it is, and the lot ‘d be put inside the bar then and we’d never take off our Wren clothes, we’d drink away all the money with our Wren clothes on us.  You know, we’d always dress up the big feller as the woman like and the small feller was always dressed as the men, d’you know.  But we’d always pick a very big feller if they dress him as a women.  And that’d be the craic like, d’you know.  But we’d never stop or stay bejay, till we spend the lot that night, whether it’d be on sandwiches and drink and every whole thing, we’d treat everybody coming in and out then.

J C       What exactly happened, what did you do?  You say music, what kind of music?

M Mc  We’d have banjos, fiddles, tin whistles, drums, singing, singers among us, everything, anything, we’d have the lot like, every feller ‘d have to be able to do something like, step-dancer, we’d have a singer because you might walk into some pub and they’d say, “Can you step-dance”.  More of them ‘d want tin whistle playing and more of them ‘d want to sing songs and all that.  Well, we had a man for everything, we were short of nothing, so he’d no excuse, he’d have to pay up like.  (Laughter)

J C       And what would you do, would you actually catch a wren?

M Mc  No, no, we used to never have a wren.  We’d be letting on to have one like, d’you know, no, we’d never a wren.

J C       Did you have anything to pretend it was a wren?

M Mc  You’d have a holly tree, each one of us have a bit of a holly tree and pretend that you had it and that you lost it like, you know.  There a lot of them wouldn’t give you money except you’d have the wren, but we used never have one.  Maybe we might have one a year now and again like, but very seldom.

J C       Do you ever remember the wren at all, having the wren, do you remember having it?

M Mc  Oh yeah.

J C       What did….. what did….. how did you catch it when you actually had the wren?

M Mc  You’d get them in the nest….. well, there’d be always a small little nest like in the trees now, moreover a holly tree, and you’d have him.  People used to get him and keep him in cages until the Wren’s day and then they’d kill him like, ‘twas kind of cruelty, you know.  And a lot of them wouldn’t give you money then except you’d say:

The wren, the wren, the king of all birds,

In Stephen’s Day he was caught in the furze,

Up with the kettle and down with the pan,

And here’s the penny for any poor man.

So a lot of them give you nothing except you say that, you see, you’d have to have the rhyme.

J C       Do you know how they killed it when they killed it Mikey?

M Mc  Oh, don’t you know, I suppose wring his neck or something. 

J C       There was no other way of killing it?

M Mc  No.

J C       Give it a twist?

M Mc  No, ‘twas a kind of cruelty like, d’you know.

J C       Yeah.

M Mc  I wouldn’t mind killing a hare now, nor a rabbit or anything like that, but I wouldn’t like to interfere with birds.

J C       And how would you dress up, would you have any special way of dressing up?

M Mc  Yeah, you’d get an old coat and turn it inside out, blacken your face, ‘twas agin the law because ‘twas a kind of a disguise, you know, they used blacken their face one time with soot off of a chimney, but that was agin the law ‘cause you’re going in a kind of disguise, you know, so you’d have to have something to cover your face.  Why they put it agin the law I don’t know, you know.  But we’d make our own masks, not like the…. we wouldn’t buy the paper ones in the shop or anything ‘cause ‘t wouldn’t last, you know, we’d have our own ones made out of stockings or something, two holes cut out in it and your nose out another part of it and your mouth like, we’d have it right, you know, the way you could breathe in and out sure, all day.  But you’d an old hat and you’d have it turned inside out and you’d have a load of old feathers up out of it and they tied together or something, you know, stupid old things.  You’d the same way with your trousers, you’d have a big man’s trousers on a small feller and small trousers on a big feller, d’you know.

J C       Was there anything that was always the same Mikey, like, was there any particular mask or dressing up that always had to be the same every year, or was it anything?

M Mc  No, ‘twas anything, it was up to yourself, as long you wouldn’t be letting on to be known, d’you know, you’d be disguised yourself so you wouldn’t be known.  Sure, you’d be  known all right.  Well, you’d meet groups of Wren Boys then like, that’s why you’d have to keep a crowd together, because if you met another crowd they’d rob you, take whet you have off you.  (Laughter)  And you wouldn’t know who did it, you see, they’d be all in disguise.

J C       What was it you were saying last week about the bloke in the pub, when he went in and athey were all taking the mickey out of him?

M Mc  Oh, that was the wife’s brother, or first cousin.  He was six foot four, so we dressed him up as a woman.  So in the old pubs that time there was what we call a nook (te) when you walk in the door, ‘twas for the old women when they’d want a bottle of Guinness they’d steal in there like, the way the people wouldn’t be looking at them.  And we got into the nook anyway, and jay, we ordered sandwiches and everything, we went out for two sliced loaves and a couple of pound of ham and we started making sandwiches inside in the nook.  So the big feller anyway, didn’t want to know about us, d’you know, he went up, he went out to the bar and he was dressed up as a woman, d’you see. 

And all the men were watching, “Jay, she’s an awful size there”, they really thought she was a woman like. 

So bejay, we called him in two or three times, he wouldn’t come in, he’d say, “No, go away”, wouldn’t go in near us at all, d’you know.  He knew there was trouble starting with the blaggarding.  So we got finished up of eating all the ham anyway, and the sliced bread was left, and there was a little window at the nook like, and we started sliding the sliced bread out of them, d’you know.  And he was getting mad at us, d’you know.  (Laughter) 

And the feller of the pub was getting us out anyway, putting us out; “Ah well, we’re leaving anyway”.

“Well, get out”, he put us all out.  

But I was supposed to be the governor.

“Jay”, he said to me, “get out the big one will you, don’t she start”;  (Laughter) he was the quietest man in the pub.  He still thought he was a woman.  (Laughter)

J C       Was there any drinking actually done on the Wren, or was it all afterwards?

M Mc  We’d never touch a drink all day long until we come home.

J C       That was the rule was it?

M Mc  That was the rule, and I’d be cash….. I was nearly the cash man all the time.  What we used call it was bottling like, what we get in the town, that was back to me and I do be wearing the pouch; there wouldn’t be ten cigarettes bought out of it, nothing, until we land back and the lot was up on the counter then inside in some pub, everything.  There might be seventy, a hundred pound maybe, maybe more, maybe a hundred and a half.  But if we didn’t drink it all that day we’d drink it all the following day.  (laughter)

J C       Was it….. you were saying you went out with Johnny as well, Johnny Dooley?

M Mc  Oh yeah, Jim Coffey, Patrick Dooley, another feller, Donie Hogan, me; there’d be about ten of us together. 

J C       You were talking about the mean man, what was that, he threw sixpence down or something?

M Mc  Oh, that was in Dingle; they had the biggest Wren in Ireland in Dingle Town, they still have it. But jay, there’d be about fifty of them together like, jay, you wouldn’t throw them no half crown or five bob.  But I was standing there one day when a woman threw two half crowns off a top window, down to them.  Well they’d be dressed up in horse skins, they have them for years like, and there’d be two men in a horse skin and a cow skin and goats and sheep, they had the biggest Wren in Ireland.  And te woman thought she was doing a great thing, throwing them down two half crowns, that time like, ‘twas a lot of money that time, and they threw it back up at her, she wasn’t long changing her mind.  A pound note or fivers and tenners they’d have to get or else they wouldn’t have no Wren the following year, d’you know.  But they were in a big way, they’d have a big lorry and they’d do Dingle Town first and then they’d do Annascaul, then they’d do Tralee, Killarney, right around The Ring, they’d land back in Dingle Town that night.

J C       And this still goes on you say?

M Mc  Oh, it still goes on.  But I’m not talking about shillings there like, them fellers might have a thousand pounds, but what they does with the money is put into a pool to build up the Wren again for the following year.

J C       That’s a nice idea.  Was there anything else like that for collecting money Mikey, apart from the Wren?

M Mc  Well Travellers one time, if your horse got killed, of course they were very poor that time, some of us was poor.  And if a horse got killed now, well that’s the only way of pulling along his things like.  Well that was generally always a sergeant of the town that’s over the police like.  They kind of knew us, d’you know, and he’d give them a note and he’d stamp it himself, will the sergeant from the barrack, and he’d tell him to go on and make a collection through the country until they get the price of the horse back, the guard; the police was very good like, that way.

J C       From the Travellers?

M Mc  No, from the Gorgies.  So he’d go from house to house.  I never did it like but I knew the world of people that did do it.  And they’d go from house to house and you’d be surprised at the way them people ‘d support them.  So if you went in another time now maybe, to those farmers, they mightn’t give you a pint of milk.  But when you go on that day, when you’re badly in need like, they might throw you a pound note, maybe two pound.  And the same way, if the caravan….. several caravans got burned now, we’ll say, they’d make up a collection through the country and they’d buy a decent caravan; it happened a dozen times, people meeting accidents and all that, you know.  Well if….. Travelling people was the same anyway; a Travelling man had only one horse, if that horse got killed we’ll say, he’d no money, well all us Travellers get together and throw in so much apiece and buy him a horse.

J C       You were saying at first, when you said that you had to get a note from the sergeant, you were talking about Travellers then, if a Traveller lost a horse, and he could go to the Gorgies and ask.

M Mc  Yeah, he’d go to the sergeant of the barrack, sergeant write him out a note and stamp it himself, sign his signature to it he’d go from house down and collect his price of his horse.

J C       Do you ever remember….. back to the Wren Mikey, do you ever remember any trouble on The Wren like, do you ever remember having fights with other Wrens.

M Mc  Oh faith to it, you had to watch yourself like, sure you had a good crowd with you. 

If there was a small bunch of us that was together one time and we meet another small bunch, well we’d join together, ‘cause he’d tell us about another crowd; “There’s about ten blokes on then, if they catch you; well we’ll join together”, and then we might have twelve, d’you see.  If we got them up in the end, well then we’d go at them fellers.  (Laughter)

J C       It was all knock-about; there wasn’t any big trouble?

M Mc  Ah, no, no, nothing serious like, you know, no.  But we’d do hospitals, d’you know, we’d go to the reverend mother over the hospital we’ll say.  We used even go to the asylum in Killarney; they’d leave us right in.  We’d go all round the wards and all the patients ‘d give us money and everything, you.  But they’d really be looking forward to us coming in like.  I remember one time, we were in Killarney and the matron over the hospital, we were inside in a pub, and she told, “Make sure and call up to the hospital”, she said, she knew us like, she knew the instruments that we were playing and all that, knew us by the music.  Up we went, and what a collection, she brought us from ward to ward, every one; cheered up the patients, yeah.

J C       Was there ever any time it was stopped Mikey, by the law, or not allowed to go on?

M Mc  No, not that I remember.  But if the law did stop it, I’d say they’d never stop it, they’d still go on with it, you know.  They’d go on with it in spite of the law.

J C       Ok, shall we………….

You were saying last week about New Year and having enough money in for New Year; can you tell us that again?

M Mc  Well, that’s what all people like, look forward to…..  they make out if you’re short for New Year’s Eve like, that’ you’d be broke for the year.  So we make sure and have enough of everything, even if you have only a pound note in your pocket, as long as you’ve enough indoors and enough of everything, water and firewood, every whole thing.

J C       Now there was something else connected with the New Year you were talking about Mikey, what was it; it was hanging a branch of something.

M Mc  We used do that years ago; I think that was All Souls Day Jimmy.  We used hang…… I forget the name of the tree now; but we used hang that in every door of the house, every door in every house in the town, every house, banks or the poor man’s house, whatever it was.  We’’ we’d do that at twelve o’clock at night when everybody would be in bed like; we’’, they’d know it’d be going on, you know.  And everybody wake the following morning and ‘twould be tied at their door like.  Ah, I forget the name of the tree now, ‘tis so long ago.

J C       And that’s all you did, you just…..?

M Mc  Just hang them in the door.

J C       Do you know why?

M Mc  They claim ‘twas keeping away the ghosts from the doors, or something like that, you know.  But we’d go round then the following day and collect in all the shops and houses.

J C       You’d collect after?

M Mc  Collecting, yeah, every shop and every house then ‘d give us thruppence or sixpence or something like that, you know.