Tape 140 

Mikeen McCarthy  21.6.81     (some interference on this tape)

Contents

Talk about smuggling tin over the border to the Irish Free State during the war when it was scarce.   

Double floors in caravans, tin hidden in cavity between floors.

Smuggling nylon stocking, women wrapped them around their waists and pretended to be pregnant.

Smuggling still going on, tarpaulin carpets, paint, tea, horses, donkeys, goats.   Fortunes earned at smuggling.

Watches and clocks, rope, horseshoe nails..

Killing goats and shipping them out as sheep.

Smuggling coffee, tea, butter during the Second World War.

Travellers making poteen (illegal whiskey), also made the stills for making it.

His father made the worms out of copper for the stills.

The Travellers had secrets of cures with herbs. Would never pass on the secrets of their cures.

Travellers not involved in the politics of Ireland.

Travellers forced into associating with one side or the other during the "Troubles".

Story of father and The Black and Tans - stripped naked by soldier and saved by girl driving creamery cart.

Snuff traditions, had to take it when offered.

Take snuff and say "God have mercy on the dead".

Blessing after sneezing.

Churning traditions, take the churn stick, give three churns and bless the house.   If this wasn't done the butter would be thrown away.

Giving butter to Travellers.

Churning butter by one farm for  neighbours, taking it in turn.

When Travellers left a house the occupiers would throw a handful of salt after them "to take the bad luck with them".

Clothes of person who died given to Travellers, they had to be worn to church for the next three Sundays.

No class distinction between Travellers and gorgies, Travellers would just go into a farm without being invited and make themselves a cup of tea.

All this stopped when Travellers got motor cars and travelled to other counties, then the Travellers going round would be strangers.

Gorgies inhospitable to Travellers would not be popular with their neighbours.

Non travelling hawkers.

Peddler’s licences.   Peddlers licence 5/-, Hawkers licence 10/-.

It was worse to be caught without a licence then than it is now.

Licence covers insurance over damaged property.

Licence had to be displayed on the side of vehicle, renewed yearly.

Police in Ireland worse years ago than they are now.

Ballinasloe fair, Travellers go back from this country, as many English as Irish there.

"Horses was the life of men", close as the family, raised up like one of the kids.

Travellers kept piebald, sold rest to farmers

Travellers regarded as experts on horses by gorgies, vet would be expert on blemishes but the Traveller would be best judge on a horses' working ability.

Piebald horses favoured by Travellers because of the colours; comparison with caravan paintwork.     

J C       Mikey; somebody was talking to us the other week about a song called ‘Smuggling The Tin’, did you ever hear it?        

M Mc  Er, I think I heard a verse or two, but I don’t remember any of it Jimmy, no.

J C       Do you know what it’s about?

M Mc  Yeah.

J C       Could you tell us?

M Mc  Yeah.  Well that was during the war; the tin was very dear in The Free State and they used to go in over the border in The North and they’d buy the tin, and how they used smuggle it out then was they’d have a flat cart, a horses cart and they’d have a double floor in it, and ‘twould be in between the two floors.  And they’d have a crowd of kids and tents and all that up on top of it so when the Customs come to try like, they could find nothing.  But they found it in the end; they used just tip the boards with a pencil, something like that, and find out the double floor, so they lost again that way.  But they got away with it for years.

J C       What; they’d buy the….. where would they get the tin?

M Mc  In The North; boxes of tin; you’d get the large box, to go eleven dozen and four sheets, to go two foot six by fifteen inches, something like that, and then the smaller boxes was eight dozen and so many sheets again, and that weighed about half hundredweight; the big one weighed about six stone, three quarters of a hundredweight.  They’d fit about four or six doors in between the floors in the flat cart.  But they were smuggling other things as well; nylons, nylon stockings, all that.  A woman ‘d wrap all them around her waist and let on to be pregnant, you know.  And she’d get away with that; she might have two or three hundred pounds worth of nylons around her waist.  And they used smuggle the paint, and the tea.  They’d have the horse drawn caravans and they’d have what they call the double back and the double front and they’d have all the tea down between that again, so when they get over the border then they only just loose a couple of boards and take them all out again.

J C       That was all round the same time was it?

M Mc  Yeah; that was on the border.

J C       That was during the war?

M Mc  Yeah.

J C       Was there a lot of smuggling?  When did the last smuggling go on Mikey, d’you know?

M Mc  Oh, whenever the war ended.  Ah; ‘tis still going on, you know, ‘tis still going on, smuggling, yeah.   But the Travellers earn an awful lot of money out of it.  They’d go on, they’d do the back roads, bring out what they call tarpaulin (te), d’you know, carpet, paint, tin, tea, everything like that, cigarettes, you name it, they had it, every man had a different trade.  They smuggle even horses, donkeys, smuggle them in, goats, in the middle of the night, you know.

J C       What; just rode them over the border?

M Mc  Ride them over the border in the middle of the night, maybe two or three hundred goats.  They had their customers waiting at the other side, you see.  All little farms ‘d be waiting on them and everything.  There was one Travelling Man, he never left The North for sixteen years, the border, right at the border.  They earned fortunes out of it.

J C       Was it all the Travellers did it or was it just certain families?

M Mc  The majority of the Travellers did it.  There wasn’t as many Travellers as there is now like.  Then there was people that was never in The North in their life; I was never there, but I just knew all the fellers that was doing it.  They’re still doing it; watches, you’ve ladies watches, clocks, you’ve everything.  They’re still at it; they’re caught every second day as well.  But when the Customs catches them then they take their horse and cart.  Up in the next auction then, they’d run away and leave the horse and cart, like and whatever ‘d be in it, so them things ‘d be auctioned out then the following morning, and whoever ‘d own the horse and cart, whatever they’ve taken from him, he’d send on another feller to buy them back again for him, so they’d be using the same horse and cart on the same road again on the following day.

J C       It was done in a really big way though?

M Mc  Oh yeah, ah, you’d see the one man and he might have three wives, they’d be all different man’s wives.  They’d be all pregnant and have children and everything . 

(ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE)

J C       Go on Mikey; sorry.

M Mc  Yeah, as I say, even to nails, horseshoe nails, rope, everything, anything; every man had his own trade.

(ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE)

P Mc   Is this Travellers from north of the border and south Mikey.  I mean some of the Travellers tended to stay in the North didn’t they.  Did they bring stuff across mainly from the South going to the North?

M Mc  The fellers from the inside was bringing it out across, the fellers from the inside was bringing it back in again, more stuff, different stuff altogether.  They were bringing in all goats and donkeys like, selling them for the….. that time, as far as I believe like, I wouldn’t say it was quite true, but they were killing the goats in the North and shipping them out as sheep.  Who’d know the difference when the skin ‘d be off. 

J C       What other kind of rackets like that went on Mikey, can you think?

M Mc  It went on; ‘tis still going on, went on.  Anything you wanted they’d have to go into the North because you couldn’t get it in The Free State during the war.  They were drinking coffee and cocoa, you’d only get a half ounce of tea for a week or something.  The Travellers seemed to have plenty of tea all the time, you know.  But they’d bring out a ton of tea at the time maybe, between four of them, d’you know.  Butter, all that.  You’d meet fellers in the North then, want stuff out of the Free State, and ‘twas back in again; they lived off of The North.  When the war was over then a lot of them went away to England.  They were lucky enough, they were never locked up, they always had some way of escape. 

J C       How about things like alcohol, poteen and things like that.

M Mc  Oh, I suppose they’d be bringing things like that in like, but I don’t thing there was much drink in that time with Travelling people, you know, they were too much interested in their business.  But I suppose that there was other things that I didn’t know anything about.  Snuff, all them things, anything that was wanted in The Free State, they’d have it.  ‘Cause they always had a man coming up; shopkeepers, or whatever they’d be and they wanted something, whatever they want, maybe five hundredweight of tea, thing like that; they’d supply them with it.  The man inside, he’d say, “Get me a hundred goats and bring them in”; they’d get a hundred goats and they’d bring them back in over the border again (te).  And feather beds, horses hair, everything like that.

J C       Did the Travellers ever make poteen Mikey?

M Mc  Oh, they did, yeah, the old Travellers, yeah.  But I’d say Travellers would be in the inventing of it when it started; they used make all the worms, all the vessels for it, the tubes.  They supply all the gear anyway, you know, they must have known something about it then.

J C       Well I thought they set up the stills; you have to have a permanent place for a still; you can’t move it about, can you?

M Mc  Ah well; the Travellers at that time used to be in permanent places then like, for long times, you know; I used know Travellers in the one spot maybe three or four years.  They’d have plenty of time for this poteen to draw anyway and to brew.  (Laughter)

J C       Did you ever do it yourself; or your family?

M Mc  No; but I often see my father making the worms and all that for them, you know, for the farmers, he knew all about them.  He’d get a very light copper tube, and of course they’re doing it now in plastic.  He’d make a worm; it’d be like a spring.  He’d make all the vessels that they’d want; the inner things and the outer things, they used call them, he used make all the big drums, everything like that.

J C       Did you ever hear tell Mikey, of something that the Travellers had, or had the secret of, the Gorgies didn’t, you know, other people had?

M Mc  Oh; they’d the world of secrets.  The Travelling Man could do anything; they’d the world of stuff.   Herbs off of the land, off of the ground.  Those things died with them because they never told anybody; they believe if they told you, that the skill of that would leave them; no, they’d never tell a person.  They had several things like that, several cures.  I often saw them mixing stuff there now for horses and for people as well; they would never tell anybody what they was mixed out of or made out of, anything like that.  They could cure horses when no vet could cure them.  I head them curing farcy and dropsy in horses that couldn’t be cured by any vet.

J C       Why do you think that was, that the Travellers had skills that nobody else did?

M Mc  Oh, I don’t know, ‘tis something in us I suppose, came from somewhere, I wouldn’t know.  They could mix stuff and the smell of it would knock you, whatever way they used to do it, off of herbs and all that.  If you asked them what it was made of they’d tell you it was made out of a different thing altogether, you know, they’d never tell you the truth.

J C       Never tell you the truth?

M C     .  If you asked them what it was made of they’d tell you it was made out of a different thing altogether, you know, they’d never tell you the truth.

J C       Never tell you the truth?

M C     Yeah.

J C       You know; but back to what we were talking about before Mikey.  You know you were talking about smuggling; did you ever hear tell of Travellers smuggling weapons during The Troubles?

M Mc  No; no, I never heard tell of that, no.

J C       Were Travellers ever involved in that, the politics.

M Mc  No, no.

J C       A Travelling man‘d be too ignorant, they wouldn’t, you know, they’d be…. A Travelling man was supposed to be a right hard man altogether; they wouldn’t…... they looked hard, but they wasn’t, they was soft at heart, they wouldn’t harm….. they wouldn’t even kill a rabbit, some of them; they wouldn’t even kill a bird.   I had my father in the war, and he often told me, “When you kill a bird”, he said, “even when you kill a fly, you’re taking a life”.  They wouldn’t do anything like that, they were good to animals, very kind.  They’d never beat a horse now, or a donkey, or anything like that.

J C       But they’d never….. where do you think their sympathies would lie in The Troubles at all, who would they support, or would they support anybody?

M Mc  There’d be some of them in The Troubles like, but if they were it was a kind of a had to do, d’you know, ‘twas to protect theirself.  But you’d never hear them talk about killing anybody, but oh, they were in The troubles, don’t worry about that, they had to be; every man had to be that time, ‘cause ‘twas a thing that you had to be in, you know. In them days I believe; I used hear them talking about it; you just couldn’t sit out there like I am now, light a fire and sit around it; one side or the other ‘d come along and take you on anyway, ‘d you know, you had to, you had to run with the boys.  Well, you had to be with your own crowd like.  But if you came out of a pub, I believe that time, or just walking home at late at night, I believe The Black and Tans ‘d take you in and jakers, if they caught you again I believe they’d shoot you, you know.  So they had too be one side like, they had to go with the boys; that’s what I heard them talk about anyway.  They could come along if they were sleeping in our house.  You’d often see a house, I believe, that time, and there’d be three or four and ten women in the house and no men; all the men‘d have to be away.  ‘Twas troubled times, I suppose and that was it.  You just couldn’t live neutral I mean.

J C       Your father had trouble with the Black and tans once, didn’t he?

M Mc  Yeah.

J C       can you tell us that Mikey?

M Mc  He was taken into…… himself and an old feller, they were in the English army together, and the other feller was stone deaf.  And they were taken into Ballymullen Barracks.  Bejay, the other feller was shot; my father got out of it all right, d’you know, but the other feller was deaf and he misunderstood one of them; took it the wrong way and there was a bit of a hardy guy and he young like and, he took the…... what your man said, he took it wrong and he upshot and he hit your man inside in the cell, and my father was with him; and then my father and him got involved and they got stuck into some two or three of them and the next thing they were left out the following morning anyway, and my fathers clothes was taken off of him, and they let him go on naked, they were going to shoot him.  Ands there was a girl with a creamery car, donkey and creamery car we’ll say, and she saw him; I’d say ‘tis her saved his life.  She took off her coat and thrown it to him to cover himself and she told him walk in front of the donkey, that they couldn’t shoot her.  So he got away that way.  And he goes into a friend’s house and he give him some more clothes.  The following morning, I think he was coming down, across a hill, himself and my mother, and the Black and Tan pulled him up with a gun anyway, and he was bringing him back in to where he was after being left out for questioning.  If he had to go back in like, he’d had it.  So he told my mother in our language to nissen out on the tober; that is to go out on the road, you know.  She did and he turned around anyway, he was well used to those things I suppose, during the war and he left your man have it, gun and all.  He thrown the gun down over the cliff and he just walked down with my mother, got away agin.  (Laughter)  Ah, they had some Travelling men and they drawing big rocks on their back inside in bags all this, d’you know, in the night; they didn’t know what they were doing, they didn’t know, and they were blindfolded, the way they wouldn’t know where the were and all that, you know.

J C       The other couple of things I was going to ask you Mikey was, you were talking one night when we were going to the club, about snuff; do you remember that night, you were talking about snuff and what you used to take snuff for; do you remember that?

M Mc  The tradition about snuff is it?

J C       Hm, hm.

M Mc  Snuff like, everybody go round with snuff and the man that refuse it like, he wouldn’t because ‘twas kind of a tradition, you’d take it like, on the back of your hand and you’d snuff it.  ‘Twould be an awful embarrassing thing if you didn’t take it off of the man that’d be offering it like, you know, it was a tradition that everybody take it.  So it could be in a house or in a pub, and people who wasn’t used to snuffing like, they’d be all sneezing, you know.  Jay, it’d be like people having a dose of flue; the whole lot of them together‘d be at it, d’you know.  (Laughter)

J C       Was there anything said when you took snuff Mikey?

M Mc  Oh yeah, you say, “God have mercy on the dead”; you know, and you’d pray for the souls belonging to them like and all that, you know.

J C       Do you know why, d’you know why they said that?

M Mc  I suppose it’d be some kind of blessing, wouldn’t it, something like that, you know.  That’s what you hear them all say when they take it, “God have mercy on the dead and Lord have mercy on the souls belonging to you”, you know.  ‘Tis to pray for the souls that they kind of give it ‘cause I think some people that never snuffed snuff, they used buy it just for that, you know, just for that transaction like.

J C       Do you know something else connected with that; do you know if somebody sneezes Mikey, somebody always says….. what do they say?

M Mc  “Oh, God bless us, God bless you”.  The other person say “God bless you”, d’you know.  And if he sneezes, “Oh, God bless me” he’d say.

J C       D’you know what would happen if somebody….. d’you know why they say that?

M Mc  I think there used to be a kind of fear of it because I believe if you get a lot of sneezing your heart stops, you know.  (Laughter)  ‘Twould be on account of that maybe.

J C       You never heard any stories about somebody who sneezed and nobody said, “God bless you”, you don’t know what’d happen.

J C       No, no.

M Mc  They still kind of say it, you know, I says it myself like.

J C       The other thing was churning Mikey, when somebody was churning in a house?

M Mc  Oh, that was the oldest trick in the book; well, it wasn’t a trick like.  Somebody’s churning, making butter.  You go in, well, you’re supposed to take the churn stick and give three churns; “God bless all here”, say, and bless the house or bless the butter. And if you had misfortune that you didn’t do that, they’d say nothing ‘till you’d be gone away, and then when you’d be well gone now, milk, butter all out, lot thrown out and they’d start a new churning.

J C       They’d throw it out if you didn’t do that?

M Mc  yeah, they wouldn’t use it.

J C       Would the Travellers be given butter and milk.

M Mc  Oh yeah, yeah; when you call round then they keep some of the butter for you then.  Well you’d always get butter.  Kind of a way it was that if there was that if there was four houses together now, one of them ‘d make butter this week, the other feller make butter next week; it’d be all between the four.  They’d help out one another like that like. ‘Twas a hard days work like, making butter, a long days work; be churning all day long, there might be three or four there.  You’d take the churning stick in your hand and keep at it, another feller’d take over then, another one‘d take over then; ‘twas a good days work.  So that’s why they’d make it, we’ll say, once a week, maybe once in the two weeks between the four houses; one ‘d make it one day and the other would make it next time, and all that.

J C       Was there ever a time when they wouldn’t give you, any time of the year when nobody’d ever give you butter or milk or bread or anything.

M Mc  They had traditions when they give you milk, they’d get a grain of salt and when you’d be going out then….. there wouldn’t be any harm by it, but they’d throw it out the door after you like; anybody, could be their next door neighbour, all the same.  But no; nothing else about that.

J C       Do you know why?

M Mc  I suppose to take the bad luck with it, you know, something like that, you know.  But apart from that, no, nothing else.

J C       If there was a funeral at the house they’d give the clothes to the Travelling Man, wouldn’t they, of the dead man?

M Mc  Yeah, yeah.  Tell them call on for them, pick them up; they could be new clothes, they could be any way.  I often heard it said that they’d buy a new pair of boots for the old Travelling Man, new shirt for him for the good of the dead like, to pray for the souls, you know, all that.  The old clothes wasn’t worth giving then, probably buy him… you know, give him good clothes.  They were known to buy shoes for them and shirt for him and all that, new.

J C       If you were given clothes did you have to wear them within a certain time; what did you have to do?

M Mc  Yeah.  Well, you’d have to wear them going to mass, we’ll say, of a Sunday, or something like that now.  You go to mass maybe three Sundays and pray, and then wear them away after that, wear them out.

J C       But you have to wear them three Sundays.

M Mc  Yeah.  Wear them out altogether then

 J C      You’ve talked a number of times about visiting people and stopping at the house.  Was that regularly done?

M Mc  The Gorgie houses now you mean?  Oh yeah, oh yeah.  There was no class distinction that time,; I remember my mother and my father then going and visiting the houses, and where they were last year they go back and see how they were getting on the next year and all that; they were just like neighbours, they wouldn’t think, no difference at all whatsoever, it was only just Mick and Janie, ‘twas Pat and Tom or whoever they were in the houses, they were all the one.  If there was nobody in the house my mother ‘d lift the latch off the door and go in and make the tea or the dinner, whatever she’d want, shut the door after her again; she’d tell the next door neighbour then, “I was back and there was nobody in, I made myself a cup of tea”, and all that, you know.  “If you come around, tell her I was around”, and all that, “to see her”, you know.  There was none, nothing at all whatsoever.  We could stop in the one neighbourhood for the rest of our life if we want; go to the same schools; just the difference of a caravan and a house, that’s all; no difference in the people.

J C       When do you think that stopped Mikey?

M Mc  I think ‘twould never have stopped if all the Travelling People had to keep their own counties; I think ‘twas the motor that did it, because when they got the motor they were travelling to all different counties and they weren’t known.   A little bit of class….. some Travellers, they was rougher than the others.  I think that a bit of class distinction started, when people came away to America and came to England and they went to go back on holidays.  They didn’t even want their neighbours visit them in case the dirtied the carpet, don’t mind the Travelling People so.  (Laughter)

J C       Did the Travellers work the land with the Gorgies?

M Mc  Oh yeah, cutting the turf and every whole thing, saving the hay, digging the potatoes, cutting the beet, milking the cattle.  I used milk cattle five o’clock in the morning.  You wouldn’t get paid for it, ‘tisn’t payment you wanted, just to oblige the man by helping him out, you know.  My father’d send us up; “Go up and give the man a hand”, you know.  We’ll go up and load manure with him, help out the man like, every way.  Well he’d pay us, but in a different way, you know.  He’d give my father grain for horses, all that, you know, milk, potatoes and all that, whatever we wanted.

J C       If there was…… if you were travelling in an area and there was somebody who wouldn’t give you hospitality, was known as being mean, would you have any words for him, would you…..?

M Mc  No mind you, but the rest of the neighbours, his neighbours then….. the Travelling man‘d hardly go near that man then you know, that woman, that way.  Well, the rest of the neighbours, they wouldn’t like him either, no.  ‘Twould be against Travellers he’d be, he’d be the same way with his next door neighbours.  Well I didn’t mind them anyway.  But you’d meet the mean feller; he might wind up the decentest man in the whole lot, he’d overdo it some day.  (Laughter)

J C       What were the best counties you think you travelled in, or where the much the same?

M Mc  Ah, I reckon every man for his own county; Kerry was our best county.  If you talk to a Waterford man, Waterford would be his best county, talk to a Cork….. well they knew their own Travelling People, they knew them, you know, they all.  They’d tell us when we went around, they’d say, “There was strange Travellers here the other day, they were from Waterford or from Galway or some place.  If we didn’t see them they’d be telling us all about them, and if they done anything bad they’d be telling my mother and father about it, you see.  They’d say, “They put the horse into a field of oats on us”, and something like that.  There wouldn’t be much done anyway, but they’d tell my mother and father; whatever they’d do out of the way they’d tell everything back to my mother and father.  (Laughter)  Well the Travellers hat time wouldn’t, you know, they were very honest people that time.

J C       Would there be any way of warning off Travellers that were sot behaving themselves, by other Travellers?

M Mc  Oh, there would, yeah.  There was parts of it like; you’d meet the fellers, bits of blaggards we’d call them.  We’ll say there’s fellers that take away your horses, but they wouldn’t do that to fellers they’d know, you know.   Then my father met Travelling People that wouldn’t know, he’d tell them where not to pull, d’you know; he’d say, “Don’t stop over here now”, he’d say, “there’s a few blaggards there.  They wouldn’t know ye now and they’d blaggard ye like”, you see.  Well they couldn’t blaggard my father because he’d know them too well, you know.  But he’d warn off the other old Travelling People, he’d tell them were to stop if they were strangers in the country.  He’d tell them the houses to go to and the houses not to go to and all that, you know.

J C       When we were in Clare there’s one old farmer was telling us about women travelling….. now they didn’t seem to be Travellers because the didn’t have Travelling names, but there were women who used to go round and they used to hawk needle and cotton and things like that, and pictures, holy pictures, but they didn’t have Travelling names; would you ever know who these were Mikey; they were on their own, they didn’t have trailers or anything and they didn’t seem to come from Travelling families?

M Mc  Just go from house to house like?  The same way as the Travelling People but just that they weren’t Travellers.  Ah, you’d a lot of them that way; you’d countrymen the same way, they used to front the chapel now when The Stations of the Cross‘d be coming around; he’d a horse and car, a lot of ‘em, and they go on selling holy pictures and all, the Stations of the Cross and rosary beads and statues and all that, you know, but he wouldn’t be a Travelling Man.  But they go on then to….. the mission‘d be coming around and he’d have his stall in the front of the chapel for the missions and you buy off of him going in and out.  When the mission ‘d be over then he’d go on for the next parish, the next mission and he’d do his hawking along to farmhouses and everything like that, the same way as you’re on about now; do the same thing.  I reckon those women‘d be the same way.

J C       Do you have words for those people, how do you describe them, are there names for them?

M Mc  No, no, nothing that I know of.

J C       Is there a difference Mikey between a peddler and a Traveller?

M Mc  Well for a Travelling Man now, if he went in to get a licence in the morning he’d get a peddler’s licence one time; that’d cost you five bob; a peddler would be a man walking the roads, he’d have no horse and cart.  Well you get a hawker’s licence then, that’d be for a horse and car.  Well if you’d a peddler’s licence, the licence wouldn’t cover you if you’d your stuff up on the horse and car, if a policeman pulled you, the peddler’s licence wouldn’t do it.  The peddler’s licence is only five bob and the hawking licence is ten bob, so no way that the peddler’s licence‘d cover you, that was the man hawking, that’s the peddler; he’d be walking the roads selling out of a basket.

J C       But he could be a Traveller; he could be any man?

M Mc  He could, yeah, ‘tis all the same way, we want to buy a peddler’s licence, five bob.  But he was a peddler, the man with the basket, walking.  Even if he had a bicycle ‘twouldn’t cover him.

J C       Was there a fine if you were caught without a licence, what was….. what would happen?

M Mc  Whether you believe me or not, ‘twas worse at that time to be without a licence than it is now.

J C       Really?

M Mc  You’d get away with it now, but them times you’d be pulled, ‘twas a very serious thing.  If you hadn’t your peddler’s licence there, you’d get summonsed and be fined four times the price of it then.   The hawker’s licence was the same with the horse and car, and you’d have to have your name wrote on the horse and car as well, in the front of the shafts, or you’d be fined or you’d be fined fifty bob over that.  (Laughter)  And you’d the hawker’s licence then, it cost ten bob.  Then it got into the motors, cost four pound then, then it went up to twenty pounds, it was getting expensive.  But they still had them licences, they still….. you had to have them like, you weren’t licensed.   Well, if you happened to go into a farmyard and if your tarpaulin got tore up or your stuff, you were covered, you were already insured, you had a licence, and you had that licence then, you could go into any house and nobody could do anything about it, you were paying your licence for that.  But if you were a stranger in the country and they reported you to the guards like, they wouldn’t know you and all. Once you produce your licence, that was it, you were paying your insurance to go into any farmyard.  If it happened that your tarpaulin got tore up or anything like that with bad dogs, which often did happen, you’d get paid for it.

P Mc   Do they still have to have them Mikey; in Ireland, I mean a lot of the trailers, they’re selling things, do they still have to have a licence?

M Mc  Oh yeah, yeah; they’re called roadside licences now as well; they’re up around fifty pounds now.  Buy oh yes, you have.  You have the tinsmith then, he was supposed to have a licence, but they could never prove it agin him.  If he bought shop rivets….. if he made his own rivets, no, he wouldn’t, but if he bought shop rivets and done his work with the shop rivets on the tin, he’d have to have a licence then; he could be done, aye.  Oh, there was several little snags on a man, even to the wire that go round the top of the vessel he’d make now like.  If the guard could prove that there was wire inside in it, yeah, he should pay a licence; ‘twas a metal, d’you see.

J C       And they were strict in enforcing it were they?

M Mc  They were, well, ‘twas for a person’s own benefit as well like, d’you know, ‘cause you were paying your insurance, a kind of, d’you see.  ‘Twas a kind of your own good; you’d have to have your horses cart there now and get your name on it, on the side of the shaft.  If it wasn’t there then when a garda come along and just read the shaft.  And I think the number of the licence should be on as well if I’m not…… Sometimes you have a little bit of metal plate, ‘twould be done on that, the number of your licence if you have it.

P Mc   Did you have to renew it yearly?

M Mc  Oh, every year, yeah.  If you done a day in jail then, you wouldn’t get one.

J C       You wouldn’t get one if you’d done time?

M Mc  No, no.

J C       Where did you apply for it?

M Mc  Oh we used always get them in Ireland; ah, you’d always get them like.  You go to the guards station first and he’d certify who you were, that you were clear and all that, and then you’d go up to the town hall and get it there.

J C       Were the police worse or better than they are now Mikey, would you say.

M Mc  In Ireland they were worse, they were worse in the old days.  They were ignorant, you know, they were as ignorant as the people theirselves.  ‘Twas when a bit of education, all that, came on, that they got into understanding about Travelling People and all that, you know.  But no, they were worse years ago; when I was a boy they were worse.  They know more now like. (te)  Some of them in the old days man, they thought we were proper villains altogether, you know, if they didn’t know you I mean; they’d know you were all right; if they didn’t know you, you’d an awful telling off and everything like that.  Same with you for horses, obstruction of caravans, everything.  The Gorgie man, if they ever sent for them, he’d be on the Gorgie man’s side straight away.  If the Gorgie man sent for a policeman today, well, he’s on your side as well, seems that he’s getting paid for it.  But I find the old police in England a lot better than the young race; a way better.

P Mc   How long is it since you’ve been to Ballinasloe?

M Mc  Oh, I was only in Ballinasloe once altogether Pat.

P Mc   Where you?

M Mc  That’s all, once, years ago.  But I goes to Puck fair every year and I back there.  You know, we used never go around that side; my father never travelled them areas; my father never left Kerry, and my mother never left it.

P Mc   That is n October some time.

M Mc  Yeah; I think the end of September or October, yeah.

J C       Do the Travellers still go to Ballinasloe?

M Mc  Yeah, they still goes back from this country; there’d be as many English Travelling People back there as Irish, maybe more; they goes back all the year; they’ll be all back now one of the days.  Coming on October now there’d be a boat full of them; all the Lees and the Prices and the Smiths, ah jay, there’s dozens of them; and back for Puck Fair.  They’ll go back for Puck fair now and stop behind then for Ballinasloe; stick on for the week of Ballinasloe and back over to England again.

P Mc   Do you miss the horses?

M Mc  Oh yeah, the good days (Laughter) Ah yeah.  Yeah; horses was the life of men, wasn’t it.  There’s always something to do with horses.  I’m not comparing horses to your children like, or anything like that, but horses was the same as a family, they were as cute; they were reared up with the kids, they could nearly talk to them.  We’ve known our horses man, you’d just whistle at them and they’d come trotting to you, they knew it like, d’you know.  Same as the old dogs.  Some old men and women old mares and they had twenty foals off of them; jay, they used nearly talk to them old horses; they knew everything.

P Mc   Did you sell mostly….. I mean when you were dealing in horses, did the Travellers deal mostly among themselves or did they breed to sell to farmers as well?

M Mc  Well they hardly….. the Travellers kept piebalds mostly, if their mares now had a bay foal, we’ll say, or a black, well they’d sell that to a farmer.  Well then, they’d buy horses in fairs for the farmers, sell them to the farmers, working horses, but they’d all their own breed for theirself; they used keep them and when a foal‘d be born they’d give that to one of the kids and that’d rear up their again, d‘you see; they’d have the grand foals then off of them again.  But they’d buy all heavy working horses; deal them with the farmers then.  You’d see the world of farmers going on asking the Travelling men to judge a horse for them, buy a horse for them, and they’d pay him then for buying a horse, and if anything went wrong then, they’d be responsible for him like.  But they’d try him out well; any blemishes then, or any faults, or anything like that, d’you know.   Well the farmer didn’t know a whole lot about horses so they’d get the Travelling Man always to deal for them.  Well every farmer then, the most parishes had their own dealer men, the Travelling Man, he was like a vet, same thing.  In fact they depended more on the Travelling Man than they did on the vet, the vet, he might be a good judge of blemishes and all that, but he wouldn’t know whether he’d be a good worker or not.

P Mc   Was there any particular reason why Travellers always liked piebalds, I men…..?

M Mc  Oh, I don’t know.  ‘Tis the colours; like all the colours of paints on the caravans; they liked

Colour always.  Came out in number one question one time on the radio, “Why do a Travelling man keep a piebald horse?”  No one could answer it.  This stupid old feller said, he said, “To pull his caravan”.  (Laughter)

J C       Just one quick thing Mikey.  Did you ever hear of a saying about a thing called “Telling the bees”; you know the bees?

M Mc  Yeah.

J C       If somebody dies did you ever hear anybody….. of anybody going to tell the bees that somebody had died?

M Mc  No.

J C       You never heard that at all?

M Mc  Different counties, different sayings.