Tape 148  21,4,85    Mikeen McCarthy

Bog flowers  (Het)

Uses for bogwood

Butter buried in bog

Burkin's Bog, moving bog in Kerry

Jack-O-Lantern seen in bog.

Bog water “marvellous stuff to wash in”

Dangerous bogs

Description of cutting turf in bog

"You'll never be so hungry as in a bog"

Planting trees over graves, Holly,  sally used (travellers)

Using tools to mark graves (tinkers)

Elder trees never put in graveyards (unlucky)

Hazel  lucky to travellers

Digging graves, at night, for relatives

"Walk of the Dead Road",  personal story

Dead,  ghosts, etc.

Ghost frightened dogs, haunted mollie outside Mallow

Mixed graveyards, Protestant and Catholic.

Lead stolen from coffins, Mallow

Mikeen working as cabin boy for fishermen

Eels, different types of fish

Fish so big it stopped boat

Cahersiveen became ghost town because fishing declined

Curraghs

Sailing trawlers

Singing and telling stories at sea

Whistling eel knocked cow in river

Whales in Dingle bay

P Mac We were talking about the bogs, actually, Mikeen, you mentioned flowers, there’s flowers growing in the bog, white flowers.

M Mc Ye.

P Mac What do you call those?

M Mc The flowers, well there was different names, we used to call em head flowers now, head.

P Mac Yes there the white ones .

M Mc Ye, the head flowers.

P Mac And bog wood, did you used to dig .

M Mc Ye well you wouldn’t dig for it but it would be in the way when you were digging out the turf, like, when you were cutting the turf with the slans. You’d come across it, they be all different types of wood like, any type of wood you’d see grow in the forest.  You’d elm, oak, ash, beech you had it all the same way. You’d see trees there they’d be fully grown trees under the bogs.  You’d have to get horses an everything to get em out an you’d have to dig all around em to clean em an get it clear like, because.  Well they’ve tractors now an everything tearing em out like but you’d find fully grown trees. Fully grown trees you’d find em some of em ton weight two ton, d’you know.  You’d be amazed at the way that they were preserved.  The old men used to know all the nature of the timber, I didn’t because I was too young, they’d know by the weight of em, you’d the oak, you’d the elm, you’d  the, they knew all the weight of em (…) they knew the nature of the tree.  Massive trees, massive ones, you’d see em. Same as you’d cut down a wood you’d see em in some big bogs.

P Mac (…………)

M Mc Some of em was to big so they used to do nothing with em.  They leave em go there for years like, an then they’d cut em up.  They were marvellous they’d life them in themselves like, there was so much oil or something I d’know.  They were lovely for starting fires in the morning an the evening.  The farmers long ago now before the gas an that they’d have em all broke up in logs an for starting up the turf, they were a marvellous fire if you had em cut up but they were so hard to cut.  T’d be easy enough today with chainsaws an all that like.

P Mac It was very hard?

M Mc ye twas terrible hard altogether they’d split away and you’d split em an they used  have em that time I remember for lighting their cigarettes, they’d split em like.  Twas easy split em, they’d split em with their hand like that an they’d tear away.  Well there was some of em like but, the massive ones, you wouldn’t bother with the massive ones.

J C Can I.

P Mac Sorry go on.

J C You were still on with the bog are you?

P Mac It’s alright go on.

J C We were going to ask did you ever hear of anything strange being found in the bogs, Mikey?

M Mc Ye. Oh ye, there were several things but they had no value that time. I remember one day that , twasn’t  twas other men digging, an they found butter inside in a cloth, a white cloth, it would go a stone or two stone of butter maybe. Well preserved you could see it a wee little bit sandy like, I wouldn’t like to eat it. Well they took it into the guards barrack, the police station, we call it now, an they sent it away to Dublin, there might be more there could be a half hundred weight in the one block. Well that ed be down at least six eight feet down when they found it like, they weren’t look for it just came in their way. It was butter, an well preserved an all, it must be hundreds of years there. Other stuff, as I say, they might have found crockery at that time an stuff like, with no value well they didn’t know they weren’t a judge of it like.  I recon they found  it today they would.

J C Were there any bogs in Ireland that the travellers used to keep clear of Mikey?

M Mc There was a bog out in North Kerry the move bog they call it, in North Kerry.

J C Which bog?

M Mc Burkens bog was the name of it?

J C What did you call it though?

M Mc The moving bog the traveller use to have it, because it moved.  It moved from one area to the other the old people ed tell you.

J C How’s that?

M Mc It was supposed to move from, that’s what the old people ed tell you. I used to hear my mother and father the old people talk about it. It moved from one area to the other altogether overnight.  Pishogues maybe, I d’know.  Then there was a lot of them Jack O’ Lantern stories, the later years came on, maybe as I say if I tell you a ghost story you don’t believe me, neither did I believe them.  We definitely used to see the lights twas something that was in the bogs, you could see it in one place you could see it in a lot of places like.  A lot of the old people ed say there the Jack of the Lanterns is going long (……….) people believe them cause there was no lights that time or anything. Twas the sulphur of the bog, they claim, they used to see the lights, if you were walking through the bog an you stooped down low an you’d look through the bog then you’d see the lights they’d be much like electric lights now something like that. It was marvellous stuff to wash yourself in bog water, want no soap no nothing.  You be as never as clean in your life, you couldn’t get no cleaner than when you were after bog water, we swim an all, bath in it je twas marvellous. Twould be near as clean.

J C Do you remember any of the old stories, ghost stories about the bog at all?

M Mc No of a hand Jimmy, you know I’d have to think about em.  There was ghost stories like, there were certain bogs we wouldn’t go through.  Because a bog, certain bogs was dividing land like an there was rivers running through which they were put there I suppose years gone by.  We used walk through em but the old people used tell us not to go through.  We used never like going through bogs in the night.  Well (………) because you’d go into a bog hole an go right down like, there’d be a lot of cattle lost, horses lost in bog holes.  The bogs I used to know there not bogs now there farms.  You stepped of from the top you’d clean away the het of the top that’s the first sod they call it.  Then you’d go down with your slane that ed go down about a foot an a half an you’d go along like that till the end of your plot, what you call it, then you’d go down the next sod (……………) you’d go down the farther you go down, the sixth sod we’d say, the fifth or sixth twas getting harder then, an harder, an you get down right down to the bottom that’s where you get the keirons the real black turf t’d be like coal, just like coal, (……) marvellous, the heat out of it was terrible.

P Mac Did you cut the turf for yourselves, or did you cut it for?

M Mc No cut it for farmers an people that want it like.

P Mac And they would let you have some of it or?

M Mc Oh ye, you could have all you wanted of it.  If you never cut it you could pull in and have all you want.

J C They never stopped you?

M Mc Ar no they wouldn’t bother no.

J C Who owned the bogs, it was part of farm land?

M Mc You’d buy your plot.  In our days I cut turf for my  mother when my father away in England, we bougth our own bog.  I cut it then you foot it you’d leave it drying for about two weeks, if twas good weather about a week.  You’d have to wait until you get the fine weather, then you’d foot it, what they call footing, you’d get five or six or eight sod up in a heap like that then leave it dry.  There’d be one fella cutting there be another fella piking an there be another fella behind him piking for him agin like so t’d go on back.  You’d start like with the fella with the slane he’d be cutting it, well the fella behind him with the pike well he’d shove it back to the other fella the other fella ed take it from him, on back again because you’d have to leave room for all the turf to come on an land back where you started to leave it dry.  You come along then an load it up an bring it home, there’d be some people selling, they’d be selling to the cities that time, because there was coal or anything.  The bog lorries ed come then an you’d get paid for loading it on the lorries again.  I cut it for Board Na Mona I cut it for private bogs, six shillings a day (laughs), that was a days work.(laughs).  Then you’d go footing it in, your fingers, the tops ed fall off your fingers the first day like.  You’d have to wear old gloves, an the gloves wouldn’t protect you either, oh the hard turf, your finger nails ed be all coming off, d’y know.  You’d never feel as hungry as you would in a bog, you’d starve with the hunger you’d eat every five minutes.

J C Why is that, do you know?

M Mc Must be the air of the bog or there something we don’t know.  You’d eat, you’d eat all day long.

J C Never had any reason given for that did you?

M Mc No.

J C No pisherogue

M Mc No, what you’d eat, you’d eat anything at all, you’d eat anything, you’d starve in a bog.

J C You were talking before about the Jack O Lanterns Mikey, did you ever hear of anybody being lead astray by them at all?

M Mc Oh jekers there was, you’d hear hundreds of stories about that.  But as I say like everything else they got cute then in the olden days they wouldn’t bother following it like.  It was true like there was many people, more over strangers to the country, they would keep following the lights like to see what was it like, supersticious people like.  They’d always wind up somewhere miles away, an say nothing.

P Mac I can’t remember what this was about Mikeen, we were talking one day and I’ve just got a note, I made it in the pub, trees over graves.  Do you remember that, did they plant trees on graves?

M Mc Tis, the old people used to be telling me about that. They’d no money  that time to  put crosses up like an.  Must be Jack O Lantern.  They’d no money in the old days so they sowed holly trees, sally trees, well they knew their graves by the make of the tree, d’y know.  If they didn’t set trees they’d set a young little branch like that ed grow an they’d keep it protected.  That was their head stones the travellers anyway at least, mostly travellers, (……………)they’d have their stakes and (………..) stakes they’d stake them for a cross.  There still back in Killarney but there let agin the walls now like an new head stones put down.  But the old ones are still there, the ones they made themselves, all that d’y know.  I see ten or twenty of em the last time I was back in that grave yard (………..) all the old (……..) an stakes an crosses they made their self an all that you know.  There still old holly trees down there there’s a, well their own (…) sisters like there all dead an gone an the young people , the younger race than them was dead an gone so there was no one to put a head stone over em. So them old holly trees are still going there, white thorn trees an black thorn tree all that, they had their own land marks.

J C Was there any tree in the graveyard that was, that you shouldn’t put over a grave?

M Mc Well, the elder tree, then, I never see elder trees round a grave yard, they claim twas unlucky.  The hazel tree ye, that was very lucky the hazel tree always.  Travellers very fond of hazel, whenever you see the travelling man he’d have an ash plant or a hazel stick, so they believed in them like.

P Mac Was it hazel they used on the tents.

M Mc Ye,  they used put hazel on the tents and the ash on the tents either one or the two.

P Mac digging graves in the middle of the night!

M Mc ah there was more than me.  We used to take it in turns because we used to have to do it.  Because although, it was our traditions d’y see.  When you pay for a funeral there like well that was concluded, they’d be digging, we wouldn’t have that we’d dig in the middle of the night four of us ed get together.  That’s how, there’s one or few of us left now that did digging the rest of the old, they wouldn’t be old, a lot of em dead an gone now.  That’s why today now, what kind of headstones they put up in Killarney today, they can’t dictate to thee.  There’s more than me there’s maybe four or six of us left. No (………………………………..) Well there’s more than me they don’t believe me then I’ll bring another witness another one of the boys like, oh ye.

J C Why at night?

M Mc  Well because the funeral ed be very early  in the morning more over in the winter, nine o’clock in the morning the funeral you’d have to have it ready for ten.  There was many bad wintery nights that you’d have to do it.  We’d be taking up bones an taking up old parts of coffins an all, old coffins that wouldn’t really finished like, we often took them up.  Then you’d break em up then when the other coffin ed go down they’d go ontop of it like again. Hundreds and thousands of bones.  There’s something you get used to it like no fear.  We’d have a belief, travelling people had they won’t go out except tis necessary to go out, if it is necessary yes go on, a sick person now pregnant woman say, they’d be nobody afraid to go, no matter how far ‘td be.  There be nobody afraid then once tis necessary to go you’d have to go. We often went to, I was one night a very lonesome road outside Killarney Bowenamorow is the name of it in English it’s The Walk of the Dead.  So there was a man an his brother got very ill altogether, they’d be late night, I was only about fifteen.  So I called the man an the man was sick as well, his other brother, he’d an abscess in his leg, say I go on stay there, no he said, young fella wait, no say I go on, an I  ran away in case the man would come an I kept down my head an (……………..)an I landed  in Killarney twas about two mile back out so I thought I was happy to get a lift out of the doctor.  The doctor said to me you carry on out now an I’ll catch up with you.(laughs)  The same thing happened again I was at the wagon before he started any of his car. (laughs)

J C You never hear of anything happening on those lonely roads, Mikey?

M Mc Well no. The old saying was the devil never hurt you it’s the harm would. You might hear things, see things, yes we all hears things, I never see nothing, you’d hear thing,. The dead carapisheen are felt they can be heard.  No I never, you’d hear people say yes I saw something, but, I thought I saw something, no but you would hear, I definitely we heard things like. Well there wouldn’t be anybody around at maybe one or twelve o’clock at night cause the noise that we heard, d’y know, couldn’t see em after like.

P Mac But there was nothing that stopped you going back to the same place?

M Mc No, no. There was one place alright the traveller never stopped in it for twenty years, because we had to pull our wagons by hand we couldn’t find our horses that night, we had to move in the middle of the night. Our dogs an all went, we’d a big Alsatian dog an he went an we never see him no more. An I’d a little dog a Jack Russell an he went foolish.  All we could hear around the two wagons was, ooooh, round the wagon like that, nothing there, so we lit our two tilley lamps inside, as I say we had no fear. We had fear that night, because us, we had no kids at that time, me an Nonney, Katie and Johnny Dooley, we pulled our wagons by hand, we got em weller passed the cross roads.  So nobody ever stayed there ever since, it’s a  B the B track outside of Mallow.

J C Where?

M Mc The B track Deepcross outside of Mallow. That’s twenty more than twenty years ago,twenty five.  Travelling man never stopped there ever since.  There was an old man there a Mr Fuss, he might be dead now the poor man, I dun know, I met him the following morning I told him, he said years there’s trouble he said in this road, twas he owned all them farms along that area.  He said I often wondered he said how travelling people ever stayed there he said, because I own all that farms up along there, I wouldn’t walk down this road in the night he said to me.  But he said there was mixed grave yards up there which should never have been, he said, that’s the way he left it.

J C What kind of mixed graves?

M Mc Protestant and Catholics. Well that’s what he blamed for it d’y know

J C Did you ever hear of anybody digging up the graves for anything at all ?

M Mc No there was outside of Mallow there, there was lead coffins all right an there was a few fellas got a couple of years in prison over it, they dug up the lead in the middle of the night. They sold in the lead. (laughs) There was nothing there they were old tombs, d’y know.

J C Tell us about taking the lead, you can tell us that again Mikey.

M Mc What?

J C Digging up the graves and taking the lead.

M Mc Oh ye. There was a crowd of boys, I won’t mention their names, they’r outside of Mallow.  They were fond of the pint an they went down to the tomb an they took all the leaded coffins and they weighed it in, for lead , they got about two years apeice in prison.  Three of em, three brothers.(laughs)

J C How  long ago was that?

M Mc Ah was only about twenty years ago  I’d say.  Same fellas wouldn’t care less (laughs).

P Mac Was there anything inside the coffins(laughs)

M Mc I suppose there’d be too old.

P Mac They must have been very old.

M Mc They’d got to be I suppose ye.

J C You never heard anybody else, of anybody else, not necessarily travellers digging into the graves for anything?


M Mc No.

J C Not the steal rings or anything.

M Mc No.

J C Can you tell us about that, when you were fishing Mikey?

M Mc Well I was only a tea boy at the time, when I used to go for the trawlers an the ferries. You’d leave at five o’clock in the evening like,I was only making the tea for the fishermen. Je see some big fish some eel, hake, when they catch a shark they’d cut him an leave him off, the boat wasn’t strong enough to hold him like.  I saw some massive fish coming in, one of the big hake t’d take four of em to maybe to take him in over the boat. The same with the bog conger eel.

J C What age would you be Mikey, doing that?

M Mc About twelve thirteen, fourteen. You’d see the big conger eel altogether he’d no teeth, he’d have a mane at the back of his head, I didn’t remember the length of him now but I know it would take him a long time to bring him in anyway. Its by suckage he lives, he’d suck they be keeping well out of him because his head ed be at least four six inches wide like, an no teeth, if he got your hand he’d suck your arm off, your fingers, that massive like.  He was more dangerous than the ell with the teeth cause it was all suckage. Je you’d see three or four men dragging him over the side of the boat.  You’d see the big hake then the big ones altogether, you’d see the big fish with the wings, they’d a big long tail about six, eight, ten feet long, je they were massive fish altogether.  But there was an old man telling me, they always tow their lines when they were coming home, that’s when they had all the fish sold and cleared off, there might be four or five of us then we’d be coming home then three miles up the river, and they’d throw out the lines agin to try their luck, d’y know from that on.  Although the ferry boat ed be going away by engine, an old Mike Green was telling me, I’d throw out my lines, he said, coming home, the rest of en didn’t bother, an he said, they used to have terrible strong line, an he said he was that big an we never seen, he said, but he must have been that huge that he held the boat he said, engine an all, the engine was cutting out, they had to cut the line, leave him off. They never knew what it was.

J C How long did you do that for Mikey?

M Mc Oh I served in there for two, three four years.  I’d get, they might give me half a crown then, five shillings and all the fish I could take home, d’y know. That’d be about maybe twenty thirty, well they be fish ed be left that wouldn’t be enough to fill another box , well they’d leave me all that as well. Then I’d count fish for another boat an I’d get the same thing again.  So I might do three boats in the morning, they’d be four of us like, we were a team, we might do three four boats. So then we’d  have our own maybe two boxes of fish out of three or four boats like  to sell again like, we used make a good living.

P Mac In Cahsavine?

M Mc Ye

J C How would the boats, were they family boats ?

M Mc They would be, some of em would be family boats, suppose there was a father and son now, then they’d be another father and son join in, there’d  have to be four. Another father and son then they’d be a team be a team then they’d have two boats, an they’d have one boat between em. They’d  could be father an three sons, could be father an two sons and a first cousin, things like that like. A lot of em got drownded oh an awful lot of em got drownded, the  father and the three sons got drowned in one night, father an son an two first cousins got drowned another night. Ah there was.

M Mc You said you knew people who

M Mc Ye Ye, an awful lot of em. Same thing happened in Dingle Bay a lot of em got drownded there.  Their names gone out of my head now like.

P Mac Was it a bad coast, I mean the storms, was that what happened?

M Mc It was, you could go out in the evening now, it could be a lovely evening, say in the night then you’d hear the women praying, the old women, when they hear the storms like. They were all right until they shove away out, out in the deep seas. That town I came from now, that was a ghost town when I left it because all the big trawlers took over, so they finished all the small ferry boats.

P Mac Do they still fish from there today?

M Mc They fish but not the way they used to.  I used remember going out there, we’d be waiting at three o’clock in the morning, that’s if  I wasn’t our fishing with em.  There might be ten twenty of us waiting for the boats to come in to count the fish.  You’d see that many trawlers an they’d be out in the sea waiting to come in, in their queue like d’y know. They’d be six at a time come in them  six ed be empty an they go away six more ed come that’s the way they’d be queued up. You’d know amount of fish ed be on because you’d see the ferry boats an they’d be low down in the water like.  You’d say there’s three an a half thousand in that one four thousand on this one you ‘d know, three thousand, you’d know the amount the boat ed be of of the water.  Some of the edges like that the water be at the edge like that of the boat, they’d be just barely (………) they wouldn’t even start the engine, they were marvellous men.

J C How were the ships driven?

M Mc They’d engine they were engine boats.  They were only about twenty foot long boats or engines. The weight they used carry, the men that was in it, I wouldn’t like to be in one today.(laughs) They were powerful strong men.

J C Did they go out on the Curraghs from there.

M Mc No they went out in the curraghs out from the Blaskets Dingle they kept the curraghs. Well not even inside in Dingle town, out in the Blaskets now, an all that, tis out the Blaskets mostly in Kerry they kept the curraghs. I didn’t know any other curraghs, they kept them  in  Galway, Conermarra,an the Blasket Islands.

J C What they fished from the curraghs?

M Mc Ye.  Well they had to have the curraghs in the Blaskets because they had no quays there.  See they had to bring their boats from their backs up onto the land, they had no quay inside of the Blasket Islands so they had to use curraghs in there, so that’s why they had to use curraghs.

J C Did you ever go out in one yourself?

M Mc No, no I never went in a curragh. Oh they had a , They had em back in the west of Cork I think I’m sure they had.

P Mac They still use them in Clare, occasionally.

M Mc Do they use them in Clare?

J C Yes Quilty they , you see them go out.

M Mc I see em coming in from the Blaskets  coming into Ballyferrita, they’d be coming into mass of a Sunday an shopping an all that. You’d see a crowd of em out in the water an they used to row em in.

J C Did they ever use sail at all on that coast, Mikey?

M Mc I’ve never seen sail, well I might have seen it, well they used to have the big trawlers with sails. Oh they used t.  I remember them with the masters going up in them. They used to come, they used to only come to Cahsavine now for the fish that’s the fist that the small boats ed have like.  They’d take em on to Wicklow then, onto Dublin, Waterford, all that.  Well they were the trawlers used to come from there, they used to come fishing there. I used know a man he used to keep the Arklow Robbie Castle was his name, twas he learned me them songs now. He came from, ah he’s a very old man now, a fellow was telling me down here, he’s still around.  He was the captain over that ship the Arklow, I was his tea boy as well.

P Mac Did they used to sing at all at sea, when they went out in the boats?

M Mc They used, but they’d be all singing an telling stories(….) they’d be fishing, they’d be singing old songs an all that, maybe that’s why they got a lot of the old stories from I dun know.  A lot of the old songs d’y know. I was in hospital one time in Tralee, fisher mans stories again, this man, I don’t know what county he came from now, but he told me he lived, he told us all in the ward that, he said that where I was there was only six farms an it was a kind of an Island with a river not a sea now just a river going right around.  He said there was only one way out he said an there was a bridge we had and he said there was an eel, he said, when I was a boy, he said, an I used to watch him out of  the top window of my house an you could hear him whistling an you could see him, he said, him going up and down the water he said.  There was never an otter or a rat ever seen inside of that area, he said, but he said you have to get up very early in the morning, you hear the whistling he said, and have it seen. He was telling us his uncle was bringing in the cattle one day to get a drink an that it seems that one of the cows treaded in it he knocked the cow side in the river.  He say he never harmed nobody but he’s there yet he said, an he was an old man of sixty or seventy years like.  We never see an otter or a rat he said, in them six farms he said. Well a water rat I meant there.

J C You were telling us one time Mikey they used to get whales in Dingle Bay is that right?

M Mc They used to come in there, ye I’ve seen, must be twenty thirty forty fifty whales, I’ve seen coming in. I seen the people there having fires waiting around em, I remember when I a boy.  There suits of there, if you  have like bringing the water offer the houses there now. Thad the more of em getting the oil out of em into barrels an buckets an all that.  I remember my father telling me, he said, their getting all the whale bone out of em.  But then they were fish to men there they came in there. They came in another time into Brandon, place called Brandon, its only about fifteen years ago, an the army an all came to tow em back out onto the sea, they were protected.  But there was hundreds of em there at that time.  So whatever they brought out like they towed em back out with boats an everything.  They towed whatever was alive of em back out onto the seas again.  But there was a whale came into Caherciveen one time, up right up, they couldn’t get him out he was there for days or weeks, he was there for a long time, but they got him back out onto the reef again.  He came right up into the town, narrow, twas a sea like (laughs) I remember all the town we were all there looking at him, massive looking thing.  All the people of town looking down watching him like, he couldn’t get out and they couldn’t let them get him out, an the tide used to came up an they hope he’d get out again because they couldn’t take their boats out or nothing. One day we went down there an he was gone, he got out, oh he was a massive, everything was bigger than this trailer, massive size altogether.

J C Did you hear the (…………) going out to fish (………)

M Mc No.no Ar you hear the old fishermen talk about the frights they got like.  They could smell em. They was supposed to be a terrible smell out of em like, an they could smell a whale, they’d hold back then home whatever they’d ed be the nearest port.(laughs)